Hey folks,

Have any of you gone with xanga "premium" and is it worth considering?  the free version seems to work for most folks.  just curious.

So here's a question:

Given the "mixed" history of Christianity, both flaws and stars, do we, when dicussing faith with those who bring up the flaws, immediately
    a:  Run for our lives, there is no answer to the sinfulness of the historical church
    b:  Make our case by telling of the hospitals, orphanages, water systems, etc tht also flow from Christianity's history
    c:  Point out that the problem of sin doesn't go away in christians, that's why its called the "problem" with sin
    d:  Convert to atheism or agnosticism since they've checkmated you
    e:  ____________________ (your response/solution)

Well, I posted the following response to Teh_Rev today:

Well Habib,

Here's the gist of my response to your typical rants against God.  First, some of your accusations:

He's pretty damn nasty a lot of the time
God can kill at any time for any reason
He unfairly killed Uzzah the ox cart driver
He Unmercifully killed those poor mocking kids - mauled by she-bears

Then you made typical references to Christian Hitler, Columbus' Godly Hordes, etc.

I'd just advise you that you're being led astray by two streams of intellectual shallowness.

First, I think you might not have the picture of God's "meanness"
clearly enough.  He's way meaner than you think.  Your
examples are wimpy mean compared to some others: The Noahic deluge; the
"clear the land" orders for Israel's conquest of Canaan; the deliberate
offering of a delusion to those who don't love, and therefore reject,
the truth.  God actually created all things, so that He could
"harvest" a (small?) portion of the people He created out of the
whole.  All the rest are dross, leftovers, destined for wrath,
hell, the pit.  He even makes the case in Romans that that is
quite His prerogative, and who can question it?  His argument is
"I made 'em, I decide what to do with them"  God is absolutely a
consuming fire, a being so holy that even the most righteous fall down
as dead when they see Him.  But we mustn't imagine that his
meanness is anything like ours.  Our meanness rolls out of us
whenever we feel like it, regardless of the rightness or justice of our
cause.  God's meanness is absolutely subject to his righteousness
and justice.  There never has been, nor never will be, an instance
of God executing judgement outside of His character of holiness. 
Never.  Likewise, there never has been, nor ever will be, an
instance of God not executing judgement when He "should."

Second, I think you might not have the picture of our (your AND my)
sinfulness clearly enough.  Like most people, we make our sin out
to be fun, cool, justifiable, unimportant.  We blame our
sinfulness on others, the time of day, the chemicals in our brains
(natural and artificial ones).  "So, I've made a few mistakes
along the way" is our attitude, "nobody's perfect."  Our modern
view of sin is so shallow and inconsequential that we feel quite free
to not only continue in it, but to multiply it.  No big deal.

But, at every point, when we sin we lead those around us astray. 
Someday, writhing in hell, your friends and mine will cry out "why
didn't you tell me the truth, why did you lie to me about
reality?"  We think we're loving with our friends, cuz we hang
together, have fun together, and drink, and play, and such.  But
every one of us is responsible to acknowledge God by how we live our
lives, and to do so for the benefit of the witnessess of our
lives. 

So, we have not just a mean God, but a consuming fire of a God who will
absolutely, and totally punish sin.  And we have, not just a small
problem with sin, but an incurable, fatal, intractible, disease called
sin.

And that's where the gospel comes in.  This God, who very
*rightly* could condemn all men to the dross, has offered to forgive
our sinfulness, not by brushing it under the rug, but by taking on the
punishment for it for us.

Make your worst case about God's meanness.  He's worse than we think.
Make your best case about our sinfulness.  We're worse than we think.

The "fires" of hell are a metaphor, probably representing nothing more
than the anguish of the nagging thoughts for eternity that each of us
had the opportunity and enough revelation to pursue God further, but
instead chose otherwise.  We'll each see what could've been, and
how we led our loved ones down the same path as us, and we'll be
kicking ourselves in the butt for our stupidity. Forever.

God IS good ALL THE TIME  ALL THE TIME God IS Good.

Blessings on your search for truth, Rev.  I've tried to respond respectfully, but clearly.

So, in the past few weeks, I've had input from some more "colorful" philosophers, even quoting some as discussion starters.  After watching some of their sites, and reading more of the "outflow from their hearts" I come to this question:  Can Christians do well to pay attention to pagans, cultists, agnostics, fools, or immature Christians?  Or, should we simply ignore the comments, feedback, ideas we read from them?  Whatcha think xangaites?

Well, the do is done.  I was told yesterday that I look like bruce willis.  I was also told I look like uncle fester.  hehe, what a range.  Pic to come.

ExtremeStan posted a lengthy comment that ended with:

But it is happening. And that's the whole reason for God's plan of salvation, from the very beginning of man. He had the genius to create a process where the end result would be not only a creation free of evil and pain, but also with genuine free will -- yet without the lurking shadow of sin. The provision of absolute inviolability from pain/evil with absolute free will is a logical impossibility. But God's setting up a system, thousands of years in the making, that will make both come into fruition through the *voluntary* annihilation of sin's influence.

Can we really believe that God wisely foreknew the possibiltieis and probabilities, and on that basis set into motion a creation that would pan out just as this one  has, with the full intention of eventually creating a people/world where sin has been voluntarily banished and where people voluntarily love one another completely, without "law" or compulsion, or threat of exile, or any outer motivating factors?  Is that what our scripture points to?  And is that what we are called to actually live out before we get to that final world? Loving others with  a  Christlike love, regardless of their treatment of us, or the risk of their treatment of us? 

Whew!

Tonight's the night!!! After our youth meeting, I can "fix" my "do."  About all that means is that I can cut it down even with the fuzz left in the low spots.  A very short marine boot camp cut.  Although, I have a youth pastor's  meeting tomorrow at lunch, so maybe I should leave it for a day . . .  hmmm

Ok, so there's a "debate" about whether God causes, or only allows, suffering in our lives.  It may be splitting hairs, but here's a thought.  If a day-care center hired a worker, knowing that he had a record of child abuse, but hired him anyway, and if he then abused a child, would that day-care center be liable for damages?

If God, knowing that Satan would fall, knowing that he'd take 1/3 of the angels with him, knowing that he'd successfully lead millions of men astray, and knowing that they'd cause immesurable suffering, but created all things anyway, should he not be held liable for his knowledgable actions?

Hi all,

BandonRandon showed me how to post pics, so now you can see my lovely new "do."  I will wear this do till next Wed. night, then fix it however I can.  The students in the pic are Mary Cordle and Zach Brewer.  They earned the "right" to do my hair by raising more than other students in their planned famine for relief to victims of last december's tsunami.  All the students raised over $3,300.  Mary and Zach together raised about $1,000 of that.

Thanks Brandon!!!  Thanks Mary!!!  Thanks Zach!!!  Thanks all you students who worked to fund relief for the victims!!!

First, the Before:

Next, the Durings:

Oh, and here's the donation to Locks of Love (www.locksoflove.org/):

Hey Jan, Robby, now I don't have to worry about "undoing" my do by June 11, eh?  Whew!!

Here's a long post, but it relates to a current thread.  I've seen the below-posted story floating around the internet for years.  I doubt that it's a true story, but it is an excellent illustration for a reality we often miss: 

God will sometimes let us get hurt in order to save us.

Here's the story:  SCARS IN LIFE

Some years ago, on a hot summer day in south Florida, a little boy decided to go for a swim in the old swimming hole that was behind his house. In a hurry to dive into the cool water, he ran out the back door, leaving behind shoes, socks, and shirt as he went.

He flew into the water, not realizing that as he swam toward the middle of the lake, an alligator was swimming toward the shore.

In the house, his mother was looking out the window. She saw the two as they got closer and closer together. In utter fear, she ran toward the water, yelling to her son as loudly as she could.

Hearing her voice, the little boy became alarmed, and made a U-turn to swim to his mother. It was too late. Just as he reached her, the alligator reached him.

From the dock, the mother grabbed her little boy by the arms, just as the alligator snatched his legs. That began a very incredible tug-of-war between the two.

The alligator was much stronger than the mother, but the mother was much too passionate to let go.

A farmer happened to drive by, heard her screams, raced from his truck, took aim, and shot the alligator.

Remarkably, after weeks and weeks in the hospital, the little boy survived. His legs were extremely scarred by the vicious attack of the animal. On his arms, there were deep scratches where his mother's fingernails dug into his flesh, in her effort to hang on to the son she loved.

The newspaper reporter, who interviewed the boy after the trauma, asked the boy if he would show him his scars.

The boy lifted his pant legs. Then, with obvious pride, he said to the reporter, "But look at my arms. I have great scars on my arms, too. I have them because my Mom wouldn't let go."

Many of us (me included) whine pathetically about the pain of life, and about how so and so is hurting us, whether stranger or family.  We even justify our mistreatment of others by referencing our own pain.  But what if God knows that the only way to get us to let go of our idolotries and idiocies is to put us in places where we are beyond our resources to cope with them.  And what if our good is His primary, even single-minded motive.

If that is true, then instead of mitching and boning, whining and complainning, our response to any suffering would be . . .

What do you all think our response to suffering should be?